Discussion:
[MB] I refuse to reply, as I despise the BBC, but someone should...
(too old to reply)
Stray Taoist
2008-12-11 14:05:19 UTC
Permalink
Dear Barry Took,

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/7776018.stm

I am not sure 'The Nailer' was a trademark device, really. The Kongo,
perhaps, but flashing the old *pejorative slang for those bits under jumpers
that women have that (some) men don't remove* certainly wasn't.

bah. I expect nothing less than sloppy research from the beeb, though. Plus,
it does somewhat give the wrong impression to those who might just be getting
into MB what with the new run in the ES and all...

Yours, disgusted of (not really) Tunbridge Wells.
--
http://weblog.straytoaster.co.uk/ # Gotta have a weblog. It is the law.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/straytoaster # All the cool kids have photostreams
http://www.myspace.com/thirtyspokes # talent not included
Alex Frazer-Harrison
2008-12-11 14:26:15 UTC
Permalink
Hi all

I just read the page in question and I don't see the problem. It was
something that was used on a couple of occasions, and was in fact featured
on the cover of the first American paperback edition of one of the early
novels.

The fact the BBC included Modesty Blaise alongside the likes of Wonder Woman
and Tank Girl should be seen as a compliment, in my opinion. I don't see it
as poor research at all to list Modesty Blaise as being one of the "classics
of comic book fiction". (Comic book - comic strip, tomayto - tomahto)

Cheers!

Alex
Post by Stray Taoist
Dear Barry Took,
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/7776018.stm
I am not sure 'The Nailer' was a trademark device, really. The Kongo,
perhaps, but flashing the old *pejorative slang for those bits under jumpers
that women have that (some) men don't remove* certainly wasn't.
bah. I expect nothing less than sloppy research from the beeb, though. Plus,
it does somewhat give the wrong impression to those who might just be getting
into MB what with the new run in the ES and all...
Yours, disgusted of (not really) Tunbridge Wells.
Helen Evans
2008-12-11 17:00:34 UTC
Permalink
I'm glad she made it in to this article, too. (What made *me* feel ill
was reading the words 'Betty Boop' and 'girl power' in the same
sentence. BB is the complete antithesis of female empowerment.)

As for The Nailer, although it's on the cover of the Fawcett Crest
Sabre-Tooth, am I right in thinking Modesty used it first in the first
novel, when she was rescuing Willie? Or did she just consider it for a
moment...?
If it's the former, then "long enough for her crime-fighting partner
Willie Garvin to come in through the back door and take some of them
out with his knives" is certainly untrue - Modesty can take care of
herself, without waiting for a man to come rushing in! - to me, that's
the weakest part of the comment about her.

thanks for sending the article, Stray.

Helen
Post by Alex Frazer-Harrison
The fact the BBC included Modesty Blaise alongside the likes of Wonder Woman
and Tank Girl should be seen as a compliment, in my opinion. I don't see it
as poor research at all to list Modesty Blaise as being one of the "classics
of comic book fiction".
Alex Frazer-Harrison
2008-12-11 17:14:12 UTC
Permalink
Hi Helen
Post by Helen Evans
I'm glad she made it in to this article, too. (What made *me* feel ill
was reading the words 'Betty Boop' and 'girl power' in the same
sentence. BB is the complete antithesis of female empowerment.)
Ah, but you're applying 21st century attitudes to her. Back when she came
out BB most definitely was the symbol of "girl power" and I've heard of
women who actually began thinking "beyond the kitchen" thanks to Betty Boop.
She may seem outdated and sexist today, but back in the 30s she was
considereed as empowering as Gloria Steinhem.
Post by Helen Evans
As for The Nailer, although it's on the cover of the Fawcett Crest
Sabre-Tooth, am I right in thinking Modesty used it first in the first
novel, when she was rescuing Willie? Or did she just consider it for a
moment...?
I've gone blank. I also can't recall if she ever actually used it in the
comics -- in which case its reference here would be a bit inaccurate.
Post by Helen Evans
If it's the former, then "long enough for her crime-fighting partner
Willie Garvin to come in through the back door and take some of them
out with his knives" is certainly untrue - Modesty can take care of
herself, without waiting for a man to come rushing in! - to me, that's
the weakest part of the comment about her.
I clearly recall The Nailer being used as a diversionary tactic, allowing
Willie to get his throws in. It's more representative of the partnership
between them, in my opinion. Note Willie is referred to as a partner
(certainly true) with no reference to him "saving the day" or anything.

Cheers!

Alex
Helen Evans
2008-12-11 17:28:11 UTC
Permalink
All good points!

Although I still reserve the right to detest Betty Boop. ;) If we're
looking for strong female role models then I don't see her as the
first - now, Boudica would have been a great one! Too bad they didn't
have novels or comics about her back then (sigh).
If Modesty or Boudica had worn a garter belt... it would have been to
carry a knife. LOL.

Helen
Post by Alex Frazer-Harrison
Hi Helen
Post by Helen Evans
I'm glad she made it in to this article, too. (What made *me* feel ill
was reading the words 'Betty Boop' and 'girl power' in the same
sentence. BB is the complete antithesis of female empowerment.)
Ah, but you're applying 21st century attitudes to her. Back when she came
out BB most definitely was the symbol of "girl power" and I've heard of
women who actually began thinking "beyond the kitchen" thanks to Betty Boop.
She may seem outdated and sexist today, but back in the 30s she was
considereed as empowering as Gloria Steinhem.
Guy Lawley
2008-12-11 18:47:50 UTC
Permalink
I have to say "comic book" and "comic strip" are really not the same thing
at all and I don't think it's splitting hairs to say so.

But then one of my nick-names is Pedantic Stan the Comic Book Fan, so I
could possibly be wrong about that!

:O)

Guy

-----Original Message-----
From: mb-***@ifi.uio.no [mailto:mb-***@ifi.uio.no] On Behalf Of Alex
Frazer-Harrison
Sent: 11 December 2008 14:26
To: MB group
Subject: Re: [MB] I refuse to reply, as I despise the BBC, but someone
should...

Hi all

I just read the page in question and I don't see the problem. It was
something that was used on a couple of occasions, and was in fact featured
on the cover of the first American paperback edition of one of the early
novels.

The fact the BBC included Modesty Blaise alongside the likes of Wonder Woman
and Tank Girl should be seen as a compliment, in my opinion. I don't see it
as poor research at all to list Modesty Blaise as being one of the "classics
of comic book fiction". (Comic book - comic strip, tomayto - tomahto)

Cheers!

Alex
Post by Stray Taoist
Dear Barry Took,
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/7776018.stm
I am not sure 'The Nailer' was a trademark device, really. The Kongo,
perhaps, but flashing the old *pejorative slang for those bits under jumpers
that women have that (some) men don't remove* certainly wasn't.
bah. I expect nothing less than sloppy research from the beeb, though. Plus,
it does somewhat give the wrong impression to those who might just be getting
into MB what with the new run in the ES and all...
Yours, disgusted of (not really) Tunbridge Wells.
Alex Frazer-Harrison
2008-12-11 18:57:21 UTC
Permalink
Hi Guy
Post by Guy Lawley
I have to say "comic book" and "comic strip" are really not the same thing
at all and I don't think it's splitting hairs to say so.
For those of us "in the know", you're absolutely correct. But the general
public at large neither knows nor cares about the distinction. The new movie
based upon Will Eisner's long-running newspaper comic insert The Spirit (it
was too substantial to be considered a strip) is being promoted as being
based upon a graphic novel - totally wrong. And I've seen the Watchmen movie
described as being based upon "the comic strip by Alan Moore" which is as
wrong as it is humanly possible to be.

Cheers!

Alex
Helen Evans
2008-12-11 19:15:25 UTC
Permalink
Actually I'm glad this came up, pedantic though it may be... I'm
adding comic material to my site, which I never had on it before, and
as I'm not much of a comic book/strip/ graphic novel fan, I'm a newbie
to the terminology. Can you explain which term I should use, and when?
If I'm talking about the covers, in my mind these would be the covers
of comic BOOKS... and when I refer to the strip in general, I tend to
say 'the Modesty Blaise strip' (ie, the long-running set, rather than
individual publications). When I refer to the artwork in general
(covers as well as the strip) I'm not sure whether to call it 'comic
artwork' or what...
clarification? ideas?

thanks!
Helen
www.modestyblaisebooks.com
Post by Alex Frazer-Harrison
Post by Guy Lawley
I have to say "comic book" and "comic strip" are really not the same thing
at all and I don't think it's splitting hairs to say so.
For those of us "in the know", you're absolutely correct. But the general
public at large neither knows nor cares about the distinction. The new movie
based upon Will Eisner's long-running newspaper comic insert The Spirit (it
was too substantial to be considered a strip) is being promoted as being
based upon a graphic novel - totally wrong. And I've seen the Watchmen movie
described as being based upon "the comic strip by Alan Moore" which is as
wrong as it is humanly possible to be.
Cheers!
Alex
Alex Frazer-Harrison
2008-12-11 19:24:28 UTC
Permalink
Hi Helen

I think you're pretty much correct so far.

I've seen a few incorrect descriptions used for the MB strip. For example,
the Titan Books reprints are considered graphic novels, when they should
instead be called collections or omnibuses. If the MB strip has been
reformatted as a comic book, then it's correct to refer to that version of
it as a comic book (and the cover).

Here's an interesting exercise: what do we call the final MB story, The Dark
Angels? It wasn't serialized 3-4 panels at a time, so it isn't a comic
strip, is it? Yet is it long enough to be considered a graphic novel? Or was
it a comic book? Or is it just a comic story?

There's a similar argument ongoing in the literary world. I've seen
arguments suggesting that any novel shorter than about 200 pages should be
considered a "short novel" or even "novella", while only longer works
"deserve" to be called full novels. At the same time, you have books like
Jonathan Livingston Seagull considered full novels when their word count is
closer to that of a short story...

Cheers!

Alex
Post by Helen Evans
Actually I'm glad this came up, pedantic though it may be... I'm
adding comic material to my site, which I never had on it before, and
as I'm not much of a comic book/strip/ graphic novel fan, I'm a newbie
to the terminology. Can you explain which term I should use, and when?
If I'm talking about the covers, in my mind these would be the covers
of comic BOOKS... and when I refer to the strip in general, I tend to
say 'the Modesty Blaise strip' (ie, the long-running set, rather than
individual publications). When I refer to the artwork in general
(covers as well as the strip) I'm not sure whether to call it 'comic
artwork' or what...
clarification? ideas?
thanks!
Helen
www.modestyblaisebooks.com
Post by Alex Frazer-Harrison
Post by Guy Lawley
I have to say "comic book" and "comic strip" are really not the same thing
at all and I don't think it's splitting hairs to say so.
For those of us "in the know", you're absolutely correct. But the general
public at large neither knows nor cares about the distinction. The new movie
based upon Will Eisner's long-running newspaper comic insert The Spirit (it
was too substantial to be considered a strip) is being promoted as being
based upon a graphic novel - totally wrong. And I've seen the Watchmen movie
described as being based upon "the comic strip by Alan Moore" which is as
wrong as it is humanly possible to be.
Cheers!
Alex
Helen Evans
2008-12-11 21:11:49 UTC
Permalink
So were my guesses correct, then? I thought I was stumbling around in the dark.
(And I'm still not clear on what a graphic novel is. I thought it was
just a term used by adults who didn't want to admit to reading comic
books -- it sounds a little less childish. LOL)
Post by Alex Frazer-Harrison
There's a similar argument ongoing in the literary world. I've seen
arguments suggesting that any novel shorter than about 200 pages should be
considered a "short novel" or even "novella", while only longer works
"deserve" to be called full novels. At the same time, you have books like
Jonathan Livingston Seagull considered full novels when their word count is
closer to that of a short story...
Short stories follow particular conventions, though, rather than just
being about length.

I write Young Adult lit and there are *always* arguments raging about
how to categorize YA versus mid-grade versus tween - is it the
audience age range (but these overlap), is it the protagonist's age
(but some adult novels like To Kill a Mockingbird have a child
protag), is it the reading level, subject matter, etc? - What I figure
is that this only really matters to the publisher, who has to decide
how to market the book. They decide where in their catalog the book
will 'fit', and often books are rejected because they don't fit any
particular category ("We don't know how to market this"). Whereas the
audience doesn't really care, except that they don't want to get
ripped off paying the same price for an 80-page book as a 300-page
one.

I don't know if it's the same for comics / graphic novels then ("if we
call this a comic, adults will be less inclined to buy it") ....?

Helen
Helen Evans
2008-12-12 17:00:35 UTC
Permalink
*suddenly feeling like I'm sitting in a room where everyone else is
speaking a different language*
I'm still not much of a comic fan as I will always prefer the depth
that novels give us - but I find, now reading the MB strips after all
these years, that after having read the MB novels so many times, my
brain can do a certain amount of "filling in", with the strips. But I
think that if I hadn't read the novels, I would not appreciate the
strips.
Post by Alex Frazer-Harrison
I've seen a few incorrect descriptions used for the MB strip. For example,
the Titan Books reprints are considered graphic novels, when they should
instead be called collections or omnibuses. If the MB strip has been
reformatted as a comic book, then it's correct to refer to that version of
it as a comic book (and the cover).
I'm confused, then, about what the exact definition of a comic book
is, versus a collection.
Can someone explain to the unititiated?
(and I won't wade into the whole graphic novel thing as it seems I
don't need to, for MB)

Thanks!
Helen

Oh, and when I was in University my flatmate told me I looked like Death.
(from Sandman, not literally. It was my goth-punk phase.)
So there's my 6 degrees of separation from the comic world. ;)
Alex Frazer-Harrison
2008-12-12 18:48:23 UTC
Permalink
Hi Helen
Post by Helen Evans
*suddenly feeling like I'm sitting in a room where everyone else is
speaking a different language*
I'm still not much of a comic fan as I will always prefer the depth
that novels give us - but I find, now reading the MB strips after all
these years, that after having read the MB novels so many times, my
brain can do a certain amount of "filling in", with the strips. But I
think that if I hadn't read the novels, I would not appreciate the
strips.
I don't know - a lot of folks got into the novels after reading the strips
(it would be an interesting experiment to survey this group to see who read
what first). I've always found the MB strips to be quite in-depth and
complex for their genre -- all kudos to POD for that.
Post by Helen Evans
I'm confused, then, about what the exact definition of a comic book
is, versus a collection.
Can someone explain to the unititiated?
(and I won't wade into the whole graphic novel thing as it seems I
don't need to, for MB)
Easiest way to describe it is to switch the analogy to TV series and DVDs.

A comic book is like a single episode of a TV series that may or may not be
viewed as a standalone; it might occasionally have mutli-part stories or
ongoing story arcs, but generally you can jump in at any point.

A collection is like a DVD box set released later of an entire season and/or
a collection of related episodes (such as has been done with themed DVD
releases for Star Trek and Doctor Who). But the episodes themselves could be
unrelated to each other except for characters, or there may be internal
arcs. The Titan reprints of MB fall into this category, as do many recent
"graphic novel" releases by DC and Marvel which are nothing more than
collections of storylines.

A graphic novel is like TV series that tells an ongoing story, and viewers
generally cannot get the same understanding of the story from watching a
single episode. It may be released in individual episodes at first, and then
collected in a box set, or it could be published directly as a box set (the
TV industry hasn't done this yet in America or Britain as far as I know, but
I know of Japanese and Chinese TV series that have indeed been released in
"full novel" form to DVD).

And example is Watchmen, which was published in 12 monthly issues, and then
reissued in a single-volume book, which is the one everyone knows. On the
other hand, Art Spiegelman's Pulitzer-winning Holocaust graphic novel, Maus
(another example of a graphic novel that really shows what the genre is
capable of) was only ever published as single-volume book, never in
installments.

So, shows that would count as comic books include things like CSI, Law and
Order, NCIS, and Doctor Who to a degree (though the current series comes
closer to graphic novel territory). You can jump in and "read" individual
issues/episodes, or you can read/watch a collection of the episodes, and get
pretty much the same amount of information out of them.

Shows that are graphic novels include things like Heroes, 24, Lost, Twin
Peaks, the new version of Battlestar Galactica ... These are shows that for
the most part one needs to read as a whole novel, rather than as individual
chapters/issues. You can certainly watch single episodes and enjoy them, and
some shows like Heroes and Lost have produced "jumping on" episodes. But
generally the preferred format for watching these shows tends to be as a
complete set (sort of like reading a single daily MB strip and trying to
figure out the complete storyline from that).

There's no distinction being made in terms of quality between "comic book"
TV and "graphic novel" TV. I personally consider the current incarnation of
Doctor Who to be the best English-language television production of the last
5 years. It all depends on how the writers handle the format. That goes for
comics/graphic novels too. As we've seen discussed already, there are some
works considered classics and some works that are not, in both formats.

Also, another important distinction between comic books and graphic novels:
graphic novels generally have a pre-arranged endpoint or exit strategy.
Watchmen was only ever conceived to run 12 issues or 1 book. Compare to
Action Comics which will soon pass its 850th issue. Lost is scheduled to end
in about a year. Heroes is not intended to run for 10 seasons. Babylon 5,
another example of graphic novel television, was conceived for something
like 5 seasons. BSG had an endpoint planned too. Law and Order, on the other
hand, can run as long as it has viewers - there is no exit strategy for that
series at all. The most extreme case of an exit strategy was Dave Sim's
Cerebus, which was conceived to run for 300 issues, and it did, though it
took him 30 years to do it.

Cheers!

Alex
Karl-Heinz Herrmann
2008-12-12 21:12:19 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 12 Dec 2008 11:47:58 -0700
Post by Alex Frazer-Harrison
I've always found the MB strips to be quite in-depth and
complex for their genre -- all kudos to POD for that.
I think one of the big differences between PO'Ds MB strips and others
is that he almost totally avoids the stalling and repetition strip of
the others.

For example I'm following a spider man strip online -- that will have
some plot through the three panels. Next days strip will have a
different viewing angle on the already know plot and a little bit new.
Sometimes just before a critical moment in the storyline they will
repeat the same content in different pics several times over.

Not so in the MB strip. The story flows from strip to strip and this
makes it much easier to forget about the original strip production and
publication.

Technically strips are a publication format of daily little
three-panels (or half pages or whatever) which are published one after
the other. So each should keep the plot going, should keep the interest
of the readers from day to day and preferably each strip should tell a
little story by itself.

With MB that segementation in strips is by far not as noticeable as
with other strips -- but its still published in strip format.


A comic book format is a story written/designed as a whole. A
completely redesigned version of the daily strips -- as has been done
by Pioneer -- would qualify as "Comic book" instead of a verbatim
rendering of a collection of strips. MB is easy to reformat as it
does not contain the fillers and repetitive strip elements.


Graphic novels is part marketing part self perception of the artists.
Comic books are connected with super heroes and suitable material for
children in most heads. Especially in the USA Comics seem to have gone
through quite a bit of problems when comics started to contain more
adult material -- shops closed because "childrens comics" contained adult
content. Of course "adult material" *can* contain naked skin -- but also the
stories themselfs have other topics, have a different way of graphic
representation, etc.

Graphic novels try to define a new type of literature where a graphic
element dominates the format (<-> books with illustrations) and wants to get
rid of that "Comics are kids stuff" image.

Me personally, I would say: Does it look like an old super hero or
Donald Duck comic? -> Comic book. Does it remind me of modern art,
aquarell or a strong style in the graphics -> definitely graphic novel.
Of course there is a gray zone in between. Does it stilll feel like a
strip collection (repetetive story elements which let me spot the three
panel layout with two panels of overlap) -> comic strip (collection).


As said above -- MB does not feel that way, but it *was* published as
strip. So go figure...




K.-H.

Guy Lawley
2008-12-11 18:51:58 UTC
Permalink
PS:
Of course none of those other comic book / strip heroines is fit to kiss
Modesty Blaise's *rse.

(Except for the Fat Slags, obviously.)

Guy

-----Original Message-----
From: mb-***@ifi.uio.no [mailto:mb-***@ifi.uio.no] On Behalf Of Stray
Taoist
Sent: 11 December 2008 14:05
To: ***@ifi.uio.no
Subject: [MB] I refuse to reply, as I despise the BBC, but someone should...

Dear Barry Took,

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/7776018.stm

I am not sure 'The Nailer' was a trademark device, really. The Kongo,
perhaps, but flashing the old *pejorative slang for those bits under jumpers
that women have that (some) men don't remove* certainly wasn't.

bah. I expect nothing less than sloppy research from the beeb, though. Plus,
it does somewhat give the wrong impression to those who might just be
getting
into MB what with the new run in the ES and all...

Yours, disgusted of (not really) Tunbridge Wells.
--
http://weblog.straytoaster.co.uk/ # Gotta have a weblog. It is the law.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/straytoaster # All the cool kids have
photostreams
http://www.myspace.com/thirtyspokes # talent not included
Alex Frazer-Harrison
2008-12-11 21:27:39 UTC
Permalink
Hi Helen
Post by Helen Evans
So were my guesses correct, then? I thought I was stumbling around in the
dark.
(And I'm still not clear on what a graphic novel is. I thought it was
just a term used by adults who didn't want to admit to reading comic
books -- it sounds a little less childish. LOL)
Read Watchmen. Afterwards you will have zero doubt as to what a graphic
novel is.

A graphic novel is a piece of illustrated literature, and there are masters
of this genre including Alan Moore, Neil Gaiman, Frank Miller, and others.
Sometimes they are first published in comic book format and then collected
into an omnibus -- as was the case with Watchmen and Dark Knight Returns
and a few others. Sometimes they go straight to book form.

Graphic novel is also used to describe a republishing of a comic book series
story arc as a novel. The Death of Superman is an example of this, or any of
Dave Sim's Cerebus the Aardvark "phone book"-format compilations which
collect storylines that tended to run for 30 or 40 issues (and were in turn
part of a single gigantic story line that ran for 300 issues).

Sometimes the term is used to simply describe bound compilations of comic
book stories that don't necessarily have any connection to each other except
for characters. For example the current DC Showcase reprint series is
classified as graphic novels, when in fact they are not. Similarly, the
Titan reprints of MB and James Bond are incorrectly considered graphic
novels. They are compilations.

Muddying the waters a bit are manga, which are primarily published in book
form, not magazine form. That's created a tug-of-war over whether to refer
to them as de facto graphic novels (especially since most manga involves
ongoing storylines) or comic books in non-magazine form.

It's going to get worse when comic books inevitably begin moving to more of
an online distribution model and the whole book vs. magazine issue starts to
become moot.

Cheers!

Alex
Stray Taoist
2008-12-12 08:26:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alex Frazer-Harrison
Read Watchmen. Afterwards you will have zero doubt as to what a graphic
novel is.
While I agree with that, I think AM's Swamp Thing works much better in the
novel context. (I am going to have an adverse reaction when the Watchmen film
comes out. Somethings should best be left to their time and place, and for
me, Watchmen falls under that. I know it is wrong, but when it first came
out, we *clung* to it, as it made us feel better about comics, in that *we*
had this, and no one else knew. Of course, 'Warrior' almost did that too,
especially when 'V for Vendetta' was running, albeit in fits and starts
IIRC.)
Post by Alex Frazer-Harrison
A graphic novel is a piece of illustrated literature, and there are masters
of this genre including Alan Moore, Neil Gaiman, Frank Miller, and others.
Sometimes they are first published in comic book format and then collected
into an omnibus -- as was the case with Watchmen and Dark Knight Returns
and a few others. Sometimes they go straight to book form.
Ugh. Neil Gaiman and Sandman. Overwrought graphic fiction for those effete
types who think they feel *more* than the rest of us common plebs, because
they *understand* it. Sorry, no. I could see what he was trying to do, but,
meh. (Except 'Brief Lives'. I loved that.) So I don't like Sandman. At all.
To quote Sam Keith 'Death isn't some hot chick in black, it is cold and black
and bleak'. I paraphrase, and I also forget which of his characters said
that.

*thinks he has a copyright-infringing scan of that exact quote...does*

Loading Image...
Post by Alex Frazer-Harrison
Graphic novel is also used to describe a republishing of a comic book series
story arc as a novel. The Death of Superman is an example of this, or any of
Dave Sim's Cerebus the Aardvark "phone book"-format compilations which
collect storylines that tended to run for 30 or 40 issues (and were in turn
part of a single gigantic story line that ran for 300 issues).
Being a Dave Sim apologist, even after the infamous 186 episode, I have to
admit that it is worth reading these. In order. Although ploughing through
the first phonebook may not seem like it, but it does get better.

Nothing wrong with being pedantic, people, it keeps me in manys a pub
philosophical discussion :)

m.
--
http://weblog.straytoaster.co.uk/ # Gotta have a weblog. It is the law.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/straytoaster # All the cool kids have photostreams
http://www.myspace.com/thirtyspokes # talent not included
Emma Wheeler
2008-12-12 08:57:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stray Taoist
Ugh. Neil Gaiman and Sandman. Overwrought graphic fiction
for those effete
types who think they feel *more* than the rest of us common
plebs, because
they *understand* it. Sorry, no. I could see what he was
trying to do, but,
meh. (Except 'Brief Lives'. I loved that.) So I
don't like Sandman. At all.
To quote Sam Keith 'Death isn't some hot chick in
black, it is cold and black
and bleak'. I paraphrase, and I also forget which of
his characters said
that.
*thinks he has a copyright-infringing scan of that exact
quote...does*
http://venusastarte.com/images/toaster/jpgs/maxx-death.jpg
Errrr - how does Sam Keith know what Death is (or isn't) any more than Neil Gaiman, being still alive? Isn't his idea just like any other - a guess? Even POD had his own description (Cobra Trap).
Stray Taoist
2008-12-12 09:09:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Emma Wheeler
Errrr - how does Sam Keith know what Death is (or isn't) any more than Neil Gaiman, being still alive? Isn't his idea just like any other - a guess? Even POD had his own description (Cobra Trap).
Oh, no, it was a dig from Keith at Gaiman and Sandman. (It makes it worse, as I do
believe Sam Keith was the first to draw Death for Gaiman, but that might just
be in my head.)

I take it from that you haven't read Sandman then? :)

m.
--
http://weblog.straytoaster.co.uk/ # Gotta have a weblog. It is the law.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/straytoaster # All the cool kids have photostreams
http://www.myspace.com/thirtyspokes # talent not included
Emma Wheeler
2008-12-12 09:28:55 UTC
Permalink
Hi, no I realise it was a dig, just seemed a pretty illogical one! Sam Keith illustrated the first 5 issues of Sandman I think.

I did used to read Sandman as a teenager (when it first came out) and enjoyed it, I liked Gaiman's reworking of existing myths and adding his own. Loved Dave McKean's covers too.

TBH, Death wasn't my favourite character by a long chalk and I think now would annoy me as all too 'emo'. But hey, I was 17 or so at the time. Also read Hellblazer, Shade, Swamp Thing, Watchmen, Batman:Year Zero and a bunch of other stuff as I got into comics, but Sandman was the first thing I read after being dragged into Comic Showcase by my then boyfriend who was a huge Batman/DC fan. So I can't think badly of it since it introduced me to comics. Still have the first issue signed by Mr Gaiman too.

Off-topic with a vengeance!
Emma
Subject: Re: [MB] I refuse to reply, as I despise the BBC, but someone should...
Date: Friday, December 12, 2008, 9:08 AM
On Fri, Dec 12, 2008 at 12:57:00AM -0800, Emma Wheeler
Post by Emma Wheeler
Errrr - how does Sam Keith know what Death is (or
isn't) any more than Neil Gaiman, being still alive?
Isn't his idea just like any other - a guess? Even POD
had his own description (Cobra Trap).
Oh, no, it was a dig from Keith at Gaiman and Sandman. (It
makes it worse, as I do
believe Sam Keith was the first to draw Death for Gaiman,
but that might just
be in my head.)
I take it from that you haven't read Sandman then? :)
m.
--
http://weblog.straytoaster.co.uk/ # Gotta have a weblog. It
is the law.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/straytoaster # All the cool
kids have photostreams
http://www.myspace.com/thirtyspokes # talent not included
Alex Frazer-Harrison
2008-12-12 14:31:36 UTC
Permalink
Hi M
Post by Stray Taoist
While I agree with that, I think AM's Swamp Thing works much better in the
novel context.
I'm not a Swamp Thing fan but I'll agree that's another good example. Pretty
much anything AM has done can be considered a good example -- From Hell,
League of Extraordinary Gentlemen, etc.
Post by Stray Taoist
(I am going to have an adverse reaction when the Watchmen film
comes out. Somethings should best be left to their time and place, and for
me, Watchmen falls under that. I know it is wrong, but when it first came
out, we *clung* to it, as it made us feel better about comics, in that *we*
had this, and no one else knew. Of course, 'Warrior' almost did that too,
especially when 'V for Vendetta' was running, albeit in fits and starts
IIRC.)
I'm going to disagree with the "time and place" feeling on Watchmen. I do
know the movie is going to be set in the mid-80s the same as the book, and
there is a wave of 80s nostalgia underway that could work to its advantage
(not to mention we're now in an early-80s-style recession, to boot. And I
don't know if you've seen the trailers, but they've nailed the look. The
only concern is whether the book's ending will be retained. The DVD release
is going to be spectacular as there is actually a related production
underway to adapt the Black Freighter story-within-a-story and the DVD
release may work it into the narrative.

I see it in the same light as the Lord of the Rings movies. Some people
didn't want those books adapted, ever, and were mad because they weren't
6-hour long word for word transcriptions (though some of the special
editions come close!). But the rest of us enjoyed some terrific movies.
Similarly, taken strictly by itself, My Name is Modesty (how's that for
keeping this slightly on-topic?) isn't a bad movie at all, but those
familiar with the books were left unsatisfied and there are those who feel
MB should never be adapted, due to the fact previous attempts having been
unsuccessful.

If Watchmen lives up to the trailers, it'll be a great movie, and the
success of Iron Man earlier this year proved a well-made film about a
little-known superhero could catch the public's imagination.
Post by Stray Taoist
Ugh. Neil Gaiman and Sandman. Overwrought graphic fiction for those effete
types who think they feel *more* than the rest of us common plebs, because
they *understand* it. Sorry, no. I could see what he was trying to do, but,
meh. (Except 'Brief Lives'. I loved that.) So I don't like Sandman. At all.
To quote Sam Keith 'Death isn't some hot chick in black, it is cold and black
and bleak'. I paraphrase, and I also forget which of his characters said
that.
That's a matter of taste, but Gaiman, like Moore, still has a huge
following, to the point where I personally feel that if Steven Moffatt does
indeed hire Gaiman to write an episode or two of Doctor Who when the series
returns full-time in 2010 (as has been rumored) that could be enough to add
a million viewers.
Post by Stray Taoist
Being a Dave Sim apologist, even after the infamous 186 episode, I have to
admit that it is worth reading these. In order. Although ploughing through
the first phonebook may not seem like it, but it does get better.
Surprisingly despite its notoriety (and infamy) I often get blank stares
when I cite Cerebus, so I'm glad to see it being recognized. Cerebus is a
remarkable work, if infuriating at times, especially when Sim spent a year's
worth of issues dissecting religious texts. But especially during the first
20 years of the story, it had true moments of brilliance.

Cheers!

Alex
Stray Taoist
2008-12-12 16:05:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alex Frazer-Harrison
If Watchmen lives up to the trailers, it'll be a great movie, and the
success of Iron Man earlier this year proved a well-made film about a
little-known superhero could catch the public's imagination.
Yes, it should be, but I won't be holding my breath. I liked the look of
'Transformers' from the trailer...

I have to admit it, up front, I don't really do moving images. I can't quite
find it in me to waste an hour and a half (or more these days!) in front of a
screen. And not at the prices it costs in cinemas these days. Why when I were
a lad (etcetc)
Post by Alex Frazer-Harrison
Surprisingly despite its notoriety (and infamy) I often get blank stares
when I cite Cerebus, so I'm glad to see it being recognized. Cerebus is a
remarkable work, if infuriating at times, especially when Sim spent a year's
worth of issues dissecting religious texts. But especially during the first
20 years of the story, it had true moments of brilliance.
I think the earlist earth-pig born comic I own is #6, then pretty much a
clear run from there through to about 200. Somewhere in my mother's attic. I
hope.

I *love* Cerebus. And that brings us back to AM again, I do believe :)

http://flickr.com/photos/straytoaster/152085121/

m.
--
http://weblog.straytoaster.co.uk/ # Gotta have a weblog. It is the law.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/straytoaster # All the cool kids have photostreams
http://www.myspace.com/thirtyspokes # talent not included
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